Updated artwork for BadgeGen_v4.0.c [closed]

Question

Hi everyone!

It has been a week since BadgeGen v4 BETA with its new design and features has been introduced. We have had massive feedback from you guys and many people wished for more colors, more contrast, and more lively icons.
We have sorted all that feedback and I went back to the table and redid most of the artwork. It is a bit going back towards the old design, with keeping many of our modern ideas. I tried do add more contrast as well as more "shine". I opted against going too realistic, because then the icons would have looked bad on them.
Reasons for the change and a lot of feedback, critics and suggestions can be found in this Q&A-thread.

Today, we're launching the redesigned artwork in BadgeGen_v4.0.c (so still a BETA) and again wish for your feedback. Please be constructive, if you don't like something, please tell us what we can improve.
If you spot some smaller errors in the artwork, please make me aware too, then I can change this in a later update.

Country badges will be tend to later, as soon as the general design is done.
Badge requirements may also be reworked in some cases.

Please note that changes might not immediately visible to you, due to cached data in your browser.

clappy

UPDATE 1: The ribbon font is smaller that it is supposed to be, we are aware of this.
 

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With a new update rolled out today, we will close this thread.
Feel free to post feedback here: https://project-gc.com/qa/?qa=23154/update-badgegen_v4-0-f

Comments

This version is great! Spot on for me. Far better than v3. Thank you for your work.

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The v4 design is much better. Thanks. Still it is not perfect, but it should be a case of habbit - give me 5 years and I'll tell you :-D

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Hi Clappy,

Great job so far and thank you for all the effort!  I've read through most of the threads and would like to offer some of my own feedback. I hope the following list helps.

1. Geocacher - I liked the coloring in the logo.
2. 81 Matrix - just right with the grid background and the number size.
3. Author - keep it and keep the looping shut down.
4. Favorite/Favorited -  heart color washes out if same as background so lighten.
5. D5 5T - make the 5s black to help draw attention since that is the purpose of this reward.
6. Long Distance - Lighten the blue background of the globe prevent washing out.
7. High altitude -  consider jagged peaks like original.

Everything else is coming along very nicely and I really like the new concept.

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The new ones are very colorful. I have to get used to it first.

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The latest version of the new badges is MUCH BETTER. Thanks.
Everything is better - new edges, colors, larger images, and especially the belt located more down.

Answer 1

The new design looks great! Now there is a bigger difference between the platinum and diamond badges, and I like the extra color.

If I could change one thing, it would be the Brainiac. I really did not like the old badge in the form of a brain. Now it is a cross between a brain and a lightbulb, so how about going all the way and just make it into a lightbulb?

Answer 2

Much better,
They are starting to grow on me
The font size should to be bigger and the font bolder,
The badge I like the least is the "81", i think it would look better without the white blocks with just the digits or make to white blocks fainter so the 81 is more pronounced.

Thank you for the effort.

Answer 3

Good work guys!

The last iteration was an improvement on the High and Low Altitude Badge graphics, and this is so much better again.

The Matrix Cacher definition is much clearer now.

The new borders for the gems work really well.

Probably only 2 modifications I would like to see implements are; PLEASE can you make the Adventurous Cacher graphic read as D 5 / T 5 (not D 5 / 5 T), and I think the FTF medal on the FTF Addict Badge, could do with being bigger for clarity on smaller screens.

Thank you.

PS I'm glad you've kept the Author Badge, and equally glad you've scrapped the loops. I believe this badge encourages more than a simple "TFTC" as log entries, without having to endure 'War and Peace' logs.

Comments

regarding 5/5. I know exactly what bothers you.

My idea behind it is this: you can read it from any direction.

I had (your suggestion) D5 over T5 first, which looked very strange, because the letters are not spaced equally. Still I find it an improvement to a simple "5/5".

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Thanks for the reply.
I suppose you get to see that and we don't so you'll have insights that we don't.
One further comment, which may affect my request, is that currently the outline font means that there is lesser definition to that badge, and I was wondering if using a colour (even if it's solid black) to have the D 5 / T 5 would help?
Either way, my personal opinion (for what's it's worth) is that D 5 / 5 T looks odd.

Answer 4

This is a big change indeed! Personally, I really liked the previous BETA-version, and (as mentioned before), I would have even liked that version more if all badges were without colours (ie CITO, Earth and GPS Maze). That version was 'calm' to the eyes. This version has a lot more colours, and is much 'busier'. It has more in common with the original badges, and I can understand that people like this version more. I'm sure I will get used to them as well though :-)

A few remarks:

- the edges are really nice, with a clear distinction between Diamond, other gemstones and the other ones. Great improvement!

- another nice improvement is the larger font for the number of loops, excellent now!

- for the Environmental Cacher, the dark edge seems a bit too bold in the green part of the icon?

- the '81' in the Matrix Cacher could be slightly bigger for me.

- I'm still not sure what to think of the image of the 'Attribute Cacher'. Maybe an image of some actual attributes would work better than a Regular cache, a magnifying glass and a price tag?

- the box of the 'Small Cacher' looks quite big, almost like a Regular, maybe make this a little bit smaller?

- the ribbon the the FTF-medal looks a bit washed out, the colour of the arrow in the 'All Around Cacher'-badge would work better I think

- High and Low Altitude look better now!

- the 'Geocacher'-badge looks a bit washed out as well, maybe use some brighter colours?

- I would put a star in the 'Event Host' badge as well, to be consistent with the other 'owner'-badges.

- the 'foot' of the Achiever-icon is a bit too big I think.

- why not make the hearts in both Favorite-badges green, since that is the colour they have on the GC-site as well.

And a few other remarks that have nothing to do with the design:

- when hovering over a badge, sometimes the text says 'xxx needs yyy more to go up a level', whereas for others (ie the Lab-badge) it says 'xxx has yyy and needs zzz to go up a level'. I would make the text the same where possible.

- the 'Diverse'-badge has been lowered again I see. I am trying to do 12 icons this year, so I would have no problem with a higher level. On the other side, with the Community Celebration Events and the Locationless Cache it's probably easier in 2020 to reach 12 or more in a day, so 11 seems like a good compromise :-)

- I'm still thinking there should be no APE-badge at all, but an add-on instead. After all, there is no HQ-badge too, or one for the 20 yrs-event, or a Block Party.

- the Levels for the Low Elevation seem more balanced now, nice!

- for GPS Maze and Giga, I would make the Levels going from 1-8, so that there are no doubles. This makes it a bit harder, but I think there have been more GIGA's in the past few years, and more will surely follow.

This must have taken a lot of work during the past few days/weeks (did you guys have some time left to go caching and work on your own Badges?), nice to see you really listen to the input of the community! Thanks a lot for that, and I'm looking forward to the next version(s), I have the feeling the final design is coming closer and closer :-)

Comments

Thanks for even more feedback!

I'll put your suggestions on the list, see, what/how we can/will change.
Some of it is "personal taste", though. It's with everything, some will always not like it so much.

"This must have taken a lot of work during the past few days/weeks (did you guys have some time left to go caching and work on your own Badges?),"
> No, not me, at least. :) But we had a storm in Germany, so I wouldn't have been out caching anyway.

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That's true, most of it is personal taste, and every change will lead to positive and negative reactions. I'm sure we'll all get used to the final design! Thanks for all the effort already!

Answer 5

OK, this manages to pretty true to the first new version and still a major change. There's a lot here!

- (At least) three different versions of the badge border: diamond, other gems, non-gems. I like it.

- I liked the (non-public) version where the cache type badges had color. This version with color everywhere does look a bit more messy, but it also makes things easier to find quickly. All in all, I'd say it's an improvement.

- The font of the loop addon is bigger, which means that I can now read it without major squinting.

- Addon slots have moved so that none of them are under the banner. I like it. As far as I can tell, the three badges on the side of a badge are all in a vertical line instead of along the border of the round badge. I'm not sure that's the right choice, but then I haven't seen the alternate version.

- 81 addon now has the same font as the other addons. Great.

- Unless I misremember, the D/T badge has been changed to have a border around the "81". I think it looked better without the border, giving space for a neater typeface.

- The text banner has a folded bit in each end, going down. This steals a bit of space downwards, while the space above the folded bit is unused. Could the banner be inverted so the folded bit goes upward, making space for larger text? However it's done, the text needs to be bigger.

- I'd much prefer if the current geocaching logo was used, not the colored one that was discontinued five years or so ago.

- The base of the cup on the achiever badge looks weird when the widest part isn't downwards, and in general the foot looks very large in comparison with the rest of the cup.

- The micro badge has a PET preform, a bison and ... something. I assume it's meant to be a nano but it looks weird. The previous film canister was better. Or just remove it and stay with two containers.

- Should the event host badge also have the star icon on it somewhere, for consistency with the other two owner-related badges?

- Busy cacher, perhaps the GPS should be clearly delimited from the arm so it doesn't look like it grows out of him naturally.

These are my first impressions. I may come back with more after spending some time with this new version. But all in all, this is an improvement on what was already a good change!

Answer 6

A huge improvement that must have taken many hours over the last week or so... so many thanks for listening and responding to the feedback. I like the gemstone formatting. I have two points to add...1) the word 'cacher' is repeated a lot on the ribbons... could you just drop that word to simplify things? 2) I think the contrast will be less stark once the country badges are formatted in the same style... it kind of amplifies things at the moment because the two styles of badges are sitting there one above the other on the screen. Oh, one other thing... I agree about the author badge (and I've been guilty here)... it just encourages meaningless blurb on logs just to bump the average up to 100+ to get the diamond! I'd drop it... or set it so that anything over 50 (say) doesn't attract any 'benefit'. Thanks again clappy (and all others involved in the development).

Comments

Dropping the word Cacher from the ribbons is under consideration. As you probably noticed, we have dropped "The".

But we didn't want to spend too much time on the text before listening to other feedback. If it helps us increase the readability (larger font, more spacing), I am quite sure we will drop the word Cacher as well.

Answer 7

I like all of this - the colours are bolder than the previous new version and all looks good

great job

Thanks for the revamp and also for listening to the various comments / feedback and working with them

Answer 8

A huge improvement. Once the font size is increased in the ribbon it will be great

Answer 9

Hi,

I won´t judge the new design but from my point of view the old one was better. I like simple and minimalist design and this is simply too jazzy for me. Anyway, I noticed that some of the level requirements have been changed, so I´d like to put here some of my suggestions regarding this as well:

The All Around Cacher - really like this badge and the requirements seems ok to me. Good work.

The Attribute Cacher - can´t see any benefit in this badge and could cancalled (or switched off).

The Caching Veteran - rather change it back to the old requirements. I mean first level award after just one year seems to me pretty simple

The Jasmer Cacher - can´t see any benefit in this badge and could cancalled (or switched off).

The Busy Cacher - I think there was a discussion about that and I also think that two top award as not reachable if you not playing in team or bending the rules. +/-5mins per cache gives us 288caches per day (no sleeping, no eating, etc)

The Favorite Cacher- can´t see any benefit in this badge and could cancalled (or switched off).

The Odd-sized Cacher - good idea for badge, requirements are bit tough for me but I can live with that. Just wonder how did you calculate them?

The Trackable Lover - better than the previous separate categories travel dogs and coin collector

The Giga Social Cacher + The GPS Maze Cacher + The Achiever - good ideas for badges and happy for have them here

The Author - Well, think I´m not the only one who rather cancel this award rather than reading stupid logs without any reasonable content

The Night-owl + The Scuba-Cacher - like them more than new attribute cacher and will be happy for these two if you can bring back to life from the old BadgeGen

The Lost & Found Cacher - As there are new giga and maze cacher awards, what about this one?

Finally, I would like to thank you for doing this job and looking forward to other suggestion how to improve the badges.

Comments

I won't answer all of the above, but I can at least comment on "The Odd-sized Cacher" - We did some data analyzes and looked at old badges. By looking at how many had each badge level for other badges we set a target number of achievers for the new badge. Then the numbers were set after that.

There will be additional balancing in the system, not the least for the new badges.

Jasmer is one of the most requested new badges actually, maybe the most requested even.

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Night-Owl and Scuba were never implemented in Project-GC due to technical reasons.

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reaction to comment @magsim
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The Attribute Cacher - I agree it is badge for badge
The Caching Veteran - I agree D20 is ok for me
The Jasmer Cacer - Is controverse but I'd probably keep him (you may never be able to finish it)
The Busy Cacher - I agree it is overstated
The Favorite Cacher - I agree same as Attribute cacher badge for badge
The Author - I still think 50 per diamond is enough !! (my opinion based on browsing the data of many cachers - BadgeGens for GeoGet has D50)
The Low Altitude Cacher - 0, -1, -5 ? way for me better is 0, -5, -10, -20, -40, -60, -80, -100 ... one metter is between 0 and -1 is not usable. Even 5 meters is on the edge of accuracy :)
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I'm working on some part of statistics for GeoGet (Czech software similar to GSAK), mainly BadgeGen
https://www.geocaching.cz/statistika/u/12397/stator.html

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still perhaps an interesting theme for the NEW altitude badge.
the demand came from people who just like going to the mountains.
We have badge:
"The Highlander Cacher" for catching caches over 1000 m above sea level...
25,40,60,90,150,210,320,500 - numbers of caches with repetition

a subject for thought
http://www.geocaching.cz/stator/img/bg/HighR.png

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@magma1447
Thank you for your reply. I also read https://project-gc.com/wiki/BadgeGen_v3_vs_v4 to better understand to the changes and can say that almost all changes make sense in new version of BadgeGen. Just two questions still remain:
As there are 9 new badges, are you considering to cancel the controversial author badge? It´s the only reward which fluctuates and may vary in timeline.
Can you think about calculating for each level of veteran badge? I suggest to start with 2 then 3,4,5,6,7,8,10 (then looping). Currently it´s the badge that can be achieved by creating an account and finding one cache only!

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@magsim
It's not likely that we will remove The Author, I am quite sure that we will stick with just removing the Loops. That alone has started a bit of an outcry from some users. It doesn't matter what's changed, it always hurts someone.

We believe that 100 words isn't that much. Even if copy/paste is used to achieve it, huge such pastes aren't required. We also don't believe this badge is the only cause of such effect. It can also be discussed endlessly if copy/paste is bad, or if TFTC is bad, and so forth.

In my opinion a TFTC is actually a thank you, and half of the Geocaches I have logged doesn't deserve more than that, some not even that. It's also my opinion that a copy paste which describes the day should be acceptable, as long as the text feels fairly interesting, to a few.


You are definitely correct that The Veteran badge got an effect we didn't realize. The idea was of course to have Geocached for (at least) a year. Bronze must of course start at 2 (at least). We will update the steps to 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,10.

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@magsim: I appreciate your feedback, some of it we will consider.

But there is a point I don't agree with: you stated more than once that Badge X should be cancelled/turned off, because there would be no point in it.
If we put it that way, any of the badges or the statistics has a point. Nothing of it is essential to geocaching.
And yet, many people enjoy it and there are many aspects of geocaching that can and should be addressed. If you don't like/need a certain badge - ignore it.

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@clappy
Totally agree with you. Please take my answer regarding those badges only as a subjective statement that I find them not so interesting for me.
Regarding balancing the levels could you please also reply to my suggestion on Busy cacher and CaracalShan suggestions? Copied below:
"- I'm still thinking there should be no APE-badge at all, but an add-on instead. After all, there is no HQ-badge too, or one for the 20 yrs-event, or a Block Party."
"- for GPS Maze and Giga, I would make the Levels going from 1-8, so that there are no doubles. This makes it a bit harder, but I think there have been more GIGA's in the past few years, and more will surely follow."
Thanks in advance.

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Regarding APE, I personally would like to remove it as well. But I don't think it will happen. In our first new version it was removed, and it wasn't very popular. It's harder to remove badges than to "not add them". If the APE-badge didn't exist today, I wouldn't want to add it.

It's still on the list of things we are looking into. It's likely that we will keep considering fairly big changes for another two months, so there is no reason to stress matters. But again, I doubt it actually will be removed, it would upset a lot of Geocachers. When there is only one active APE cache again, it might add to the reasons to remove it.


Regarding Maze/Giga. Having the same number on two levels doesn't have higher priority than reasonable numbers. Even though Maze is fairly common these days, it's still pretty much the same event each time. Giga varies more. I personally am more interested in visiting many Gigas than many Maze-events.

But again, we have done the first pass of rough balancing. There will be minor adjustments the coming 1-2 months. So, I am not saying they won't change, but they won't change today. And we rather balance the badges after other factors than having unique requirements.

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50 words for diamond level would be a ridiculously low requirement in my opinion for the author badge. Despite very rarely receiving cut and paste logs (less than 1%) and also receiving some very short logs, the average length of the logs on my hides is >100 words. Very few of my own logs which are written individually (similarity score 22%) are shorter than 100 words. I often need more than one log entry to report on my experience and I enjoy reading stories in logs also for caches that I will never get to visit. I do not write my logs for those who quickly want a hint when searching for a cache while being in the field.
Stories in logs for my caches are my biggest reward for hiding a cache - I value them much more than FPs.

As changing the requirements for the different badge levels is regarded, I do not think that using an approach based on the number of how many cachers reached diamond level is meaningful. The veteran badge is called veteran badge for a good reason. Achieving the diamond level after 10 years is ridiculous. Not every cacher needs to be able to achieve the diamond level for every badge within a few years regardless of how hard this cacher might work.

I also dislike the change of the requirements for the diamond level for the multi badge. The change earned me the diamond level which I do not yet deserve in my opinion.

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@cezanne
"I do not think that using an approach based on the number of how many cachers reached diamond level is meaningful"
This is not a method that has been used on the Veteran-badge. The method makes sense for some badges, not all.

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@cezanne
Regarding Veteran. There are 228 Geocacher's in the world who had Diamond with the old settings. That is ridiculous in my opinion.

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Why? There are very few cachers who are real geocaching veterans. This was well reflected by the old scale. Cache finds in 10 years is nothing close to being a cache veteran.

The comment with regard to statistical methods was a general one. The multi cache one would be a good example or also the braniac one. Why all of a sudden should all badges at diamond level be of comparable difficulty? In my opinion, this is rather a whole new system and not the old one created by the original owner.

I do not share your philosophy also as new badges are regarded. I mention that to make clear that is not about not liking change. Take the Jasmer badge. I never invested any work or time to specifically find old caches. I realized that while missing almost all of the precious months, I have reached the second highest level of Jasmer which just feels pretty wrong to me.

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@DrakMrak By the way... I love GeoGet! I'm using it :)

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@Hipogrys I am glad to hear it :)

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@cezane - Changes are in 10 from 46 badges it is OK for me... some changes are due to changes in the game.
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Pros or comments:
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- The Veteran Cacher - the question is whether a diamond is better (D20) or 2 x Diamond (D10)  - I've been doing geocaching for 13 years lol for me OK (GeoGet change to D10)
- I like the connection, TB and Geocoins - that's reasonable the problem is to distinguish what is what (TB/GC)
- The Ape Cacher - better move values
- The Odd-sized Cacher - OK
- The disconnected Mega/Giga/MAZE is OK for me and changes values
- The Multi, Regular and Traditional - changes values is ok cosmetic change in high numbers
- The Low Altitude Cacher - it is a good idea because Diamond is only for Jordan,  but I would adjust the scale to: 0,-5,-10,-20,-40,-60,-80,-100 - GeoGet. (Lol and I have Jordan cache -415m definitely recommend visiting Jordan it is a really interesting country ;) )
- The Rugged Cacher - ok little be decrease and next level by repeating Dx2, Dx3

Cons or problematic badge:
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- The Author Cacher - but I would give it a D50 - because the D100 is just too much and it's my opinion based on statistics ! And I would leave him why not (GeoGet have D50 - 5,10,15,20,25,30,40,50)
- The Diverse Cacher - corresponds to a number of types - but people who had the previous diamond badge will have a problem to achieve a new D12, because some types of caches are rare and are already caught in the area such as webcam...(GeoGet have D12 but i thinking about it)
- The Brainiac - way increase? I would let it and the next level will be repeating 2xD, 3xD and so on (GeoGet have no change)
- The Attribute cacher, The Favorite Cacher - nonsense by me
- The Jasmer it is complicated badge - it's not easy way to defined it, it's not easy way to finish it (GeoGet have criteria: 10%,25%,50%,75%,90%,95%,98%,100% from filled month - you can reach the bottom numbers quickly but the top ones are complicated when it comes to the challenge) and yet, 100% Diamond, you may never go to the end because it changes over time.
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it is not easy to choose the right criteria...

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@cezanne I dont agree..
The Author Cacher - I'm based on logging statistics.. it's pretty close to the gaussian curve for most cachers and it is somewhere around 40-50 words per log.
D-100 already forces long logos, plus the badge goes up and down...

look at this: http://drakmrak.cz/img/qualityoflogs.png

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Please note that no statistics on log lengths can say anything about the quality of a log (regardless of how you might define that notion).

My statement was not at all about any sort of badge or reward for writing logs of a certain length. Read my own logs (all available in English) and have a look at my caches. If the average log length I received for my caches was 50 or below, I would be disappointed and would consider stop hiding geocaches.

I write logs to share experiences and I read them to learn about what others experienced. I do not care about badges. I've never counted words when writing logs. I however often delay logging of caches for days, weeks or sometimes even months until I have the time and leisure to write a log that I feel comfortable with.
My favourite caches are hiking caches which cover at least 15km. I've done hiking caches which span more than 100km. There is a whole lot to report for such trips. Some cachers find 500 caches with the same distance/time effort invested and all logs are of the same type.

What I do not appreciate is if long logs are described as something bad which happens to artificially boost a score. Of course abuse exists as for all other badges as well. As my own caches are regarded, I did not receive a single log that has been written for the sake of the author's badge.

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@cezanne

I just made a comment on Facebook regarding those who would have looped The Author if it was still possible, and have a log similarity below 50%. It will be a bit out of context here, but I'll paste a copy of it.

From looking at the numbers only (not the actual texts), it seems like you would be the second best log writer. Now that's of course a simplified view point as well, I just wanted to inform you that you are, statistically speaking, a great log writer.

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I have run some numbers. It's based on the 20,000 Geocachers that has viewed their BadgeGen-statistics this week. Eighteen of them had at least double Diamond AND a "log similarity" below 50%.

The number of words and log-similarity-percent looks like this:
213 17%
308 22%
230 25%
239 28%
333 32%
314 37%
211 37%
227 38%
218 38%
218 40%
343 41%
232 41%
214 42%
214 47%
345 48%
256 49%
339 49%
216 50%
(manually sorted on percent)

It can of course be discussed what percent log similarity is reasonable to have, and if I should have required a higher or lower number of it for the above list. 50% was a number I based on pretty much nothing.

I know I have 70-75% myself, at least last time I checked. I do use a lot of copy/paste, though I am not doing it to get a better Author-badge. To really deserve an Author-badge I would think that one should have a better/lower log similarity than myself, with marginal.

All in all I would say that it's around or less than 20 users who has been "robbed" from their double/triple Diamond. No one on the list had quadruple or more/better.

PS! This took quite a few hours to compute.
--

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Thanks for these numbers. Let me stress again that I have never thought about badges when writing my logs. I'm not interested into any sort of competition.

I personally enjoy writing and reading long indvidual logs but I can well understand that others have other preferences. Moreover, there are many reasons for writing short logs.  Someone writing longer logs is not a better cacher than someone who writes shorter ones.

What I wrote has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I used to have a loop for the author's badge since you introduced that. I've always considered that a bit strange but thought that if others enjoy it, I can simply ignore it. I do not feel any loss at all due to the fact that the loops got removed. Neither would I have an issue if the author's badge got removed. However I would not like the message that were sent if the diamond level were reduced to 50. That'a a bit like frowning about cachers who decide to write long and indvidual logs.

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You write some changes are due to the change in the game. I agree that geocaching is changing. In my opinion, it is however not a good idea to react to changes in a way that will even strengthen the trend.

Some  examples:

Regular caches: They definitely are rarer among the newly hidden caches. Reducing the badge levels does not seem to be right reaction however in my opinion.What could happen if the old levels stay except from the fact that some ambitious cachers might not be able to reach their diamond goals in a realistic time? If more cachers got encouraged to hide larger containers, it would not have a negative effect.

Multi caches: I would not regard lowering the level of diamond to 1200 from 1800 as a "cosmetic change". That's a dramatic one. As geoart with multi caches of the cheap type is not guideline conforming, there is again no real danger that a higher limit would cause any abuse in the sense that multi caches got hidden just to acquire higher badge levels.

For me lowering the requirements for badges like regular and multi means somehow implicitely welcoming the development away from more complex caches, larger containers that have space for swag etc
This is counterproductive for someone like me who is fighting since years to motivate/convince more cachers to hide multi caches and to hide caches which are larger than micro.

Reaching a new world record in different sports disciplines is also not of the same difficulty level and much harder in some disciplines than in others.

I've always considered finding many multi caches as a much more difficult goal as finding many park and grab traditionals. Changing the levels so dramatically as it has happened for the multi badge, in my opinion changes the spirit of Kyle's badges which never has been a system designed in a way that everyone who is ambitious enough can reach diamond level on all badges.  The veteran badge is also a good example of the different philosophy.  Those who focus on the competition point of view will argue that veteran diamond old at 20 and veteran new diamond loop 2 at 20 is a comparable rating which is true. However when looking at things from a different angle and taking into consideration what was the intent of the original badge, then lowering the requirement from 20 to 10 makes no sense at all. It's like in school when only 2 pupils can solve the given homework set, just decreasing the difficulty by half is not the ideal approach in my opinion. I rather would try to improve the knowledge and competence level of the the students who failed.

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@cezane
I have no problem with what you wrote, the problem is in the system. If you make a badge of 100 and more words, so even those who write unfortunately rubbish trying to achieve the badge... The problem is also in the badge, is rising and falling and really all caches do not need to write 100 words..

I've been doing statistics for over 10 years and do caching 13 years. I've been doing the badge gene for much longer than Project-GC started to exist and I have a lot of experiences with it. Besides, I love long caches and I agree there can not write a short log :) So take it just as my opinion for a long time of my statistical work around GeoGet software...

My Bookmark for long walking cachers ;)
https://www.geocaching.com/plan/lists/BM2Q4AB

Happy caching :) and nice day

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@cezane
My pros and cons are just from the experience of the average cscher. Therefore, I think that even after cosmetic changes (Traditional, Multi, Regular) it is quite unreachable for many cachers...
The Veteran Cacher - I don't care how it will not be a key badge for me, it just grows with years D10 is ok for average cachers D20 for long caching cachers ? I dont know.

for me The Author is main problem... and because some people write nonsense logs with him I disagree with D100. I have about 30 own caches... I know how people write logs..
yes i can ignore it :) but I know exactly when it started, because this badge was not in the original set of badges but added later and I understand what you're saying but, a few changes to think it will not a problem.. however I also do not influence Project-gc. I express myself from the position of a person who has already done some work on that some time ;)

have a nice day cezanne

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I understand your stance. I just tried to make the point that the levels were originally designed not with an average in mind. The veteran badge clearly shows that and also some others.

Of course I have encountered myself blown up logs which were written to obtain the author's badge. Personally, I could well live without that badge (and actually also without any badges at all as they do not have a personal value for me - I'm interested mainly in the side effects the badges have on the way people cache).

As my own caches are regarded, I have however never got logs that were artificially long. I received a small number of copy and paste logs close to the date of a large event. Apart from that all long logs I receive contain an individual contents and I highly appreciate that. I need to add that I do not own a single cache which is directed to what you might consider as average cacher in 2020. The latter crowd rather has a tendency to scare away from my caches, be it due to the length of the involved walk/hike or due to the time needed. I really would feel a big loss if the average length of the logs I received for my caches were more than halved. I do not claim that the latter would actually happen if the new diamond level were 50 words, I just thought that having a 100+ average for the logs I received on my caches, gives me  a good feeling of what 50 would mean. Maybe this helps you to understand what I tried to explain.

As to the levels, I share your view. It is up to project gc to decide on them. Even if they change all levels, it's their right. I'm neither concerned about losing a level nor getting a higher level. I just want to contribute my point of view which is not a mainstream one. It seems to me that many participants here are proud about their achieved badges and view the badge system as a sort of competition which is very far from my own focus.

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@cezane
ok we probably understand each other :)
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The Author badge -maybe it would be best to turn it off and some cachers suggested it ;)  We'll see...
Long hiking caches usually cause a long log in principle (mostly) ... I never wrote a short log on a long tourist cache just because it is such a  journal for me.
:)

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Unfortunately there are still old-type challenge caches around that target log length.  Until they go, removing The Author badge won't really fix pointless cut and paste logs.
I think that removing the loop is a good compromise between removing the badge and encouraging ridiculously overblown cut and paste logs.

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BTW: Very nice list of caches involving longer walks/hike. Do you have a version which does not require to tediously navigate through it page by page. I might have a few additions for your list.

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Please do NOT turn off the Author badge!  Let's give this debate a rest.  This badge has a lot of positives to help inspire people to write logs that have at least a few words instead of an emoticon or TFTC.  Copy and paste isn't going to stop and in fact will get worse with all the power trails and geo-art everywhere now. Nothing is ever going to be perfect.

Answer 10

Here is my personal opinion.

I found the former version with more modern icons and fewer colors much easier to look at. More organized, more stylish, more simple. I find this new one with colors a bit messy, and it tends to trigger my OCD nerves saying that it's a bit of chaos.

However! With the former version, I had a hard time to find the badge I was looking for when scrolling through the badges. With the new colored version it's much faster for me to lay my eyes on the badge I am looking for. Therefore I see it as a huge upgrade compared to the former version. Going back to six badges per row might have helped this as well, since it's fewer to scroll past. It was a mistake/bug that there only were five per row in the former version though.

I am not a super fan of the gem-styled edges, but it was wished for. It was also one of the original ideas that the gem badges should "look better/more expensive" than the others. My favorite background is either Diamond or Platinum, haven't been able to decide yet. Of the gem badges, I find Diamond to look best at least.

I can understand that some don't find the new icons as recognizable as those in version 3 ("the original"). But one should keep in mind that many of us have looked at the old badges for 10 years, maybe even on a weekly basis in average.

With this in mind I did a test! I looked through all the badges, without looking at the ribbon at all. There is a total of 46 unique badges right now. I scrolled through all of them, did not spend more than 2-3 seconds on any of them. After scrolling through them all, in less than a minute, I had guessed which badge-type belonged to each icon.

The result was this:

1. The Attribute Cacher - I generally don't recognize this one on the icon itself. But I have learned which it is, and therefore scored a correct point on that one.
2. The Busy Cacher - I failed to guess this one (in those 2-3 seconds). My first failed guess.
3. The Long-Distance Cacher -  I placed it as The Travelling Cacher. My second failed guess.
4. The Travelling Cacher - I might have failed this one and guessed Long-distance, if I hadn't already failed the other.

The fact is that I didn't recognize all badges with BadgeGen v3 either. In fact, Long-Distance and Travelling were two of those I never knew about. Much because I don't care about them much, I don't have very interesting stats on those. Actually I usually have an issue recognizing more of them with BadgeGen v3.

I would say that recognizing 42-44 of 46 in less than a minute is quite good. For me, that's better percent than I had with BadgeGen v3. Then again, v3 is 10 years old, these are just a few weeks old. I strongly believe these will be much easier to recognize for most, less than a year from now.

Regarding the messy chaos impression my mind gets. This is the first published version where they are colored. If this is where we decide to stay with the icons, I am sure there will be minor adjustments which might reduce this effect a bit. Trying to make them fit together even better and such.

Then I have a list of my own with different minor "issues" with the icons. But as it's not final, I don't really need to list those here, I do have direct contact with the designer after all.

Disclaimer: While I haven't made any of the graphics, I do have strong influence on clappy, so I am not 100% impartial.

Comments

Here is a link to the work in progress documentation of BadgeGen v4.
https://project-gc.com/wiki/Category:BadgeGen

If you feel comfortable with Mediawiki, feel free to add/edit pages. If so, please take a look at https://project-gc.com/wiki/Welcome first.

Answer 11

Definitely a change for better. I would also modify slightly the colour for gold badges and do away with the author badge.

Answer 12

Thank you for this revision!

The color added to the artwork helps me a lot. If I was collecting badges just for the sake of getting the most, I would want the artwork to completely recede in black-and-white like they did in the first v4 beta. By adding a little color, each one is more individualized and thusly the achievements they each represent are more readily appreciated and celebrated as such. Side benefit: the white ghost in the Virtual badge stands out again!

And the border shapes that vary depending on the level of metal or gem achieved are fantastic -- a truly elegant way to reference and reinforce the differentiation between levels. Great idea.

Answer 13

I have collected some of my comments on the new design here. Much of it is good, but there is also a few changes which I like less. For me critique is always useful and I will try to give a balanced view, even if for some strange reason anything that can be interpreted as critique seems to get negative feedback on the forum.

Short version: Change in numbers required for some batches are bad. Most of the other things are good.

New batches:

All around. This will be a great addition once some tool is available to understand the current stats and what to do to improve it. Much potential for creating inspiration for caching and probably the best addition.

Odd size. Perhaps needed for completeness, but I could also have lived without it. Harmless anyhow.

Achiver. Good addition

Attribute. For me personaly, this one is not necessary, but I understand that at it can add to the game for someone with fewer logs.

Jasmer. Probably a good addition.     

Labs. Yes, labs have are an integral part of geocaching nowadays.

GPS Maze. Not important to me, but probably good for completness.

Giga. Having giving a lot of thought about the split between Mega and Giga, I give a big thumbs up for this one. Probably because Gigas without doubt is my absolute favourite cache type.

Other changes:

More than 9 loops are now shown. This is absolutely great.

The numbers required for some of the badges have changed. This is a big, big no-no for me. The various badges have always been unbalanced and it will continue to be more so as geocaching develops. Adjustments will never make this better and having had these levels as targets for 9 years, the changes just add frustration. This is the single reason, I will keep on working with v3 for the time being. Go back to the old levels and I will happily move to the new version.

The split between Mega and Giga is as said probably good, but also as said, the change in numbers required for the Mega batches is bad.

The join of the TB and Coin stats are probably good as it has been a bit arbitrary. There is also a new limitation to one loop. I do not understand why, but this is not important to me.

Finally, having had the batches as a target for a long time now, I do not think that the new design of the badges add anything. Quite the opposite, and the extra info could as well have been added to the old ones.

Comments

Thanks for your feedback.
You do know, that badge requirements have already been adjusted slightly a couple of years ago? Geocaching and circumstances change (think e.g. of APEs, Grandfathered type, the upcoming Community Celebration), and from time to time things should be adjusted.
We want the new adjustments to stand for a while, so this will be done carefully.

Personally, I think in general the changes are well thought out. Decreasing Multis for example is totally fine, because they were unnecessecarily hard compared to the other usual types. With the new looping you get awarded for finding even more. :)

We explained the problem with the artwork of the old ones in the previous thread. If we are honest, the old colors only truly worked, because they had the color on the badge. Additionally, we think the new design is more "similar", since all icons are designed in a similar fashioon. We're still tweaking it, though.

Answer 14

I find the new graphics pretty confusing. My opinion ... What about:

http://imgworld.cz/s3/AYSi6Z5aPl.png

Image cannot be inserted in comments ...

Beauty in simplicity.

Attribute cacher - attribute pictures

Comments

Please do not go back to this style.  I am grateful to Kyle Mills for the original design but it is time to move forward and provide realistic gems and medals.

Granted, I was shocked when I first noticed the new design and was downright upset.  But, now I am liking the new designs more and more.  The new icon colors really make things look bold and exceptional.  Also the gemstone borders and medal shading/borders look more realistic.

Thanks again to all those who are implementing this new design.  The effort is much appreciated.

Answer 15

As I tought - tehre will be a changing of the.

Now I'm totally happy again.

The colours are very good so it is easy to find the Badgetype and rank

I like the dimaond surrounding.

I like the subbadges.

I like the new badges

So good work.

Answer 16

The new artwork looks great, thank you clappy for adding some color where it works!

Looks like the URL to the wiki page for BadgeGen changed. The link last week was either https://project-gc.com/wiki/Category:BadgeGen or https://project-gc.com/wiki/BadgeGen which now redirects back to the dashboard page.

The new link for the overview is https://project-gc.com/w/BadgeGen

The comparison page for V3 and V4 is now at https://project-gc.com/w/BadgeGen_v3_vs_v4

I don't see a link to the wiki pages anywhere on the FAQ's or profile stats, where would the wiki page link be located so that users could find it easily? Maybe add it to the bottom of the BadgeGen tab in profile stats?

Comments

You are correct we changed the url format for the wiki pages. It's not linked anywhere either. We haven't considered it ready. That's also why we dared to change the url format.

The plan is to start linking it for real this week. It's also planned to be included in the next newsletter.

Answer 17

Good job friends !

Answer 18

A couple of notes more:

- The addons appear to have different colors. The loop addon is the same gray as the diamond badge background while all (that I can see) of the others have the same background as the space behind the badges. This looks weird. I'd like them all to be the same color as the diamond background (but most importantly that they are all the same color).

- The sizes are changed so that we are up to six badges per row from the five of the previous beta version (but down from the seven of the original design). I think this is a good size.

Comments

Regarding the colors:

The AddOns have a gray base, since they can appear on the gems. Loop only appears to Diamond (and is basically "looped Diamond") that's why it has the Diamond background.
If it's too much an issue, I can make the Loop gray as well (not other way around, since the Diamond base looks weird on the other gems).

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The difference in the color of the addons is so small that it just looks like a bug, not something intentional.

Answer 19

Yes, newest version is more interesting.  Beveled edges to the gems is a nice idea.
Personally I think the current ribbons are about right, even if you think they're too small.  I think it's a nice balance.
Also whether it's real or an illusion of the other design changes, the artwork in in each badge seems to take up more of the area, de-emphasizing the backgrounds.

A good move forward.

Comments

Thanks.
The ribbon size itself is good, the font size is the problem that's bothering us. It is real font, which is displayed differently in every browser. We are working on it.

You are right, the icons itself increased in size, using more of the space of the gem/medal.

Answer 20

Nice update ! far better than the v3 !